Anu ([info]azooey) wrote,
@ 2006-07-13 08:40:00
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What do they really want?
I dont find it shameful to admit that terrorism used to be something so far removed from my life as Iraq. Infact, when an Indian friend in Singapore expressed shock and sympathy for the victims of 9/11, it angered me. She had never felt a thing for the hundreds who die in the Kashmir valley every year. Why was she being so tearful abt Uncle Sam's fate? Afterall, she had not lost anyone she even knew.

Mumbai has changed that. There's a lump in my throat every time I read a story abt it. I always travel by the locals when I'm in Mumbai. Yes, it could've been me or anyone I love.

Back in Bangalore, companies are sending out disturbing security instructions: Avoid public transport, avoid hanging around crowded public areas. It makes me smile. Where are we headed? Is it really possible to stop this madness? Can any police in the world prevent bombs from being planted and at least a few of them from exploding?

I take a BMTC bus around 6:30 pm everyday. Its usually packed. And its a bloody soft target (there are even softer ones, if only you look hard enough). Sadly, there's little that can be done abt it. Any amount of intelligence effort or prior information cannot prevent it as for every move there's a countermove. For every act of prevention, there's another act of innovation. Hell, you dont even need to "innovate", just  "observe".

Unfortunately, terror has no logic. TOI is carrying this madly absurd theory to explain it all. If they really wanted to kill Gujjus, isn't it obvious where one has the greatest probability of finding them? Or does terrorism work on the basis of "kill target, plus kill innocent, hence arouse anger"?

But isnt everyone (who dies) innocent? What do they really want? And can anyone ever do anything to stop it? May be I have a limited capacity to rationalise, but the silence is chilling.

Update: [info]myrch states an interesting perspective in his post about Israel and its current offensive against Lebanon. He writes:

...the situation is complicated, and its history does entail a long list of offensive maneuvers; Arabs attack Israel, Israel attacks Arabs, Arabs attack Israel, etc. The fact that attacks have been wrought by both sides does not persuade a reasonable person to conclude Israel and its Arab neighbors are equally wrong. This sort of lazy thinking is regrettably common. If Israel and the Arabs are equally wrong, I doubt Jordan and Egypt would have signed peace treaties with Israel, tenuous as those treaties are at the moment.

I agree. And I do feel Israel is justified, to a certain extent, simply because it faces hostility for just existing. 

What if India gave up Kashmir and allowed a democratically elected govn to be installed there? Is that the panacea we're looking for? Would that end all Pak initiated terror?



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[info]dilip
2006-07-13 05:17 am UTC (link)
Terrorist cannot be prevented by security measures. One has to strike at the root.

One of the main roots is Pakistan. Lets strike it !!!!!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluesmoon
2006-07-13 02:25 pm UTC (link)
and do you have proof of this or is it just your opinion?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fugney
2006-07-13 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Oh boy. Let's invade Pakistan. That would be nice. All the Paki kids get pissed off and terrorists recruit in ever larger numbers. Indian soldiers die every day. Our bloody tax goes down that fucking drain. Yes, that would be nice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-07-13 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Kill the Paki kids soon after invasion! Problem solved!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fugney, 2006-07-14 01:04 pm UTC

[info]azooey
2006-07-14 02:52 am UTC (link)
Do you seriously believe that all violence is initiated across the border?

Firstly, it would be ignorant to discount all local elements, coz none of this would have been possible without support from disgruntled indians (solving this problem is a rather long story itself).

Secondly, imagine you nuke out Pakistan. Will that wipe out every jihadi on the planet? There'll be a whole swarm after that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]dilip
2006-07-14 04:26 am UTC (link)
I do know that local Indians have a hand in most of the terrorist activities.. but they cannot act independently. We should go for the source, the hand that feeds.

Nations should have accountability. If Pak is the breeding ground, then it should be punished. Thats the law of survival.

Why are you against war? War is part of mankind mentality just as peace. Those who wage wars are neither evil or bad. Its just how creation is.

Solving any outstanding problem/peace is another subject altogether. But the eventuality of war surely is a major parameter in influencing that process.

Aggressive ACTION sure is a DETERRENT.

Ex:
Just because we have the laws for life-imprisonment does not stop rapists from the act. But life-sentence is sure is a deterrent.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]azooey, 2006-07-14 11:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dilip, 2006-07-14 12:32 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-07-13 08:06 am UTC (link)
It is very difficult to kill Gujju in Gujarat. Thanks to Mr. Modi.

They, read Islamic terrorists, know that Govt Gujarat does not take killings of Hindus lightly, like the one in center or Maharastra State.

I have heard stories that these blast were to take revenge for the Godhra riots but then people and "they", just dont want to acknowledge what triggered the Godhra riots -- the burning train of Godhra!

Before this Bombay blast I did not approve of Mr. Modi's deeds, but now his stand has been vindicated. One need to be tough, once needs to retaliate, there has to be a deterrent. And believe me the "Sprite of Mumbai", "Never say die attitude of Mumbaikars" is NOT a deterrent.

Deterrent is what USA did to Afghanistan, what Israel does to the Gaza strip. Yes, aggressive responsive may not stop terrorist attacks but it does send a message to some groups saying, "If you kill one of us then we will kill 10 of yours". And THAT is deterrent!

Then there is our media led by NDTV. Who says, "It was an indiscriminate blast". Give me a break Miss Barkha Dutt. When the first class compartments are targetted, to guess which religious group dies in largers numbers is a no-brainer. It they just wanted to kill people, believe me they could have done maximum damage by just blasting a second class coach. But they did not do it ...

Anu, I am posting this as anon (and you are free to delete this post) as this does not sound like a diplomatically written post. May be one-day I will leave my pseudo-secular nature and post is in my blog.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluesmoon
2006-07-13 02:28 pm UTC (link)
If you kill one of us then we will kill 10 of yours

Actually, the message it sends is, "If you kill one of us, we will kill someone else so that the cycle never stops".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-07-13 07:34 pm UTC (link)
Ah! That is where you got it wrong!

(I know it is frustrating debating with a anon but still ...)

Let me tell you a real life story of what happened to me back in my BE days.

We got into a small quarrel with our seniors on some ragging stuff and it ended up in one of my seniors contacting some professional gunda guys. Who came to the campus and beat us (me and my friends) up badly. When I went home in a sorry state my dad (he has some friends in the house construction business who are also of gunda types) talked to me about it and told me that he is going to talk to some of his friends and beat up the guys who hit us.

At that point I said what you just said, "Dad, your guys will beat them up but then those guys will come after us again to take revenge!". My dad replied, "Son, we will beat those guys so bad that they don't dare look at you and your friends again".

And the result was just what he had said!

So just getting back lamely will ensure a retaliation but a forceful one will end the trouble once and for all. Point that needs to be put across is, if your hurt us, we will hurt you so bad that you will think twice before hurting us again!

I was for us in college against some local gundas, not sure if it will work against the terrorist. But it is worth a try. It is any time better than that lame speech that our PM read out yesterday.

Bye!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bluesmoon, 2006-07-13 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dilip, 2006-07-14 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluesmoon, 2006-07-14 08:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dilip, 2006-07-14 10:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluesmoon, 2006-07-14 10:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dilip, 2006-07-14 12:34 pm UTC

[info]azooey
2006-07-14 03:06 am UTC (link)
I find this completely beyond my comprehension: It is very difficult to kill Gujju in Gujarat. Just why? Arent there any soft targets in Gujju land?

Lets not even get into Gujarat riots. I think that's a ridiculous theory. Abt the deterrent that u holler about - Its ironic that terrorism is most rampant against the countries which have access to the biggest deterrent ever, the atom bomb(US, Israel, UK). And if you're telling me that Israel's bombing of Gaza will deter the palestinians from attacking again, then you just havent been reading the news.

Anu, I am posting this as anon (and you are free to delete this post) as this does not sound like a diplomatically written post.

Diplomacy is not a qualification you need to possess to comment here. But if you dont have the gumption to own up, you do realise that you will just look like a loser, dont you?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Like israel
[info]vasuvasu
2006-07-13 11:05 am UTC (link)
We should hunt, track, bomb and assasinate all terrorist targets outside of India like the israelis did to lebenon.

And we should learn to live with this reality at home.

maybe then, in another 15 years, we would achieve our goals. We should make terrorism a costly affair. Fight fire with fire. We should start behaving like India and not like bangaladesh.

The prime minister is a week one. What can you expect.

vasu

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Like israel
[info]fox2mike
2006-07-13 02:33 pm UTC (link)
It's kind of late to fight fire with fire in the Indian Sub-continent now. We should have done so when we had the chance, and we didn't.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Like israel - [info]azooey, 2006-07-14 03:11 am UTC
Re: Like israel - [info]fox2mike, 2006-07-14 03:51 am UTC
Re: Like israel - [info]vasuvasu, 2006-07-17 11:32 am UTC
Re: Like israel
(Anonymous)
2006-07-14 03:16 am UTC (link)
We should hunt, track, bomb and assasinate all terrorist targets outside of India like the israelis did to lebenon.

Not gonna work for India; attacking a percieved Muslim threat will spark "ethnic-cleansing" here in India too, no?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Like israel - [info]vasuvasu, 2006-07-17 11:37 am UTC
Re: Like israel
[info]davenchit
2006-09-26 07:02 am UTC (link)
Ah, the same Israel that has been bombing Lebanon for the last 20 years, and yet, continues to be attacked increasingly dangerous terrorists. Yeah, we should do that. I mean, the US and Israel have been hit by suicide bombers. We wouldn't want to feel left out. I say we build a 100 storey building so that terrorists can blow it up and then we can respond by killing even *more* of them.

>We should make terrorism a costly affair.

Absolutely. Screw the fiscal deficit, lets spend spend spend.

>Fight fire with fire.

As opposed to water, which is what those fools in the fire department use.

>What can you expect.

I agree. The manhood of India has been offended. We need to act like real men and kill anyone who opposes us. What's with this "democracy" bs anyway?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fox2mike
2006-07-13 02:34 pm UTC (link)
"kill target, plus kill innocent, hence arouse anger"?

Nah, just kill as many as you can...

Sad.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]azooey
2006-07-14 03:18 am UTC (link)
Sad, indeed. It makes no sense, beats all logic. Which is why I'm so apprehensive that any one can ever do anything abt it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fox2mike, 2006-07-14 03:53 am UTC

[info]cyntalist
2006-07-13 04:03 pm UTC (link)
Since Gujjus and Israelis seem to be the flavour here, I'd like to quote a certain Gujju who was mirroring the sentiments of a certain Jew - "An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind."

When will you learn that to stop the cycle you need to stop the cycle.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-07-13 07:39 pm UTC (link)
When they take your one eye, you take both of theirs! That is what Israel does! And that works cos then, they cannot aim for your other eye cos they cannot see you!

I think it is time the Ghandhiwadis stopped making saintly statements and suggested something concrete to stop this shit.

Very easy to make such statement sitting in a/c offices with lap-tops on the lap and sipping coffee.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bipin, 2006-07-14 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyntalist, 2006-07-14 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyntalist, 2006-07-14 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]davenchit, 2006-09-26 07:32 am UTC

[info]azooey
2006-07-14 03:24 am UTC (link)
I presume the "gujju" ur talking abt is Mahatma Gandhi, and one cant help but agree. But that is assuming that this was a retaliatory act for the Gujarat riots. Still, how many bombs will they continue to set off to exact revenge, and how many are we capable of ignoring?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cyntalist, 2006-07-14 03:49 am UTC

[info]cyntalist
2006-07-15 02:54 am UTC (link)
I agree. And I do feel Israel is justified, to a certain extent, simply because it faces hostility for just existing.

What if India gave up Kashmir and allowed a democratically elected govn to be installed there? Is that the panacea we're looking for? Would that end all Pak initiated terror?


Do you forget that Israel started existing by going in, shooting up and driving out a bunch of Arabs? Didn't those Arabs have a right to exist? So, yes the situation is complex. The point is - either you learn to co-exist or you co-perish. It doesn't matter who is right at any given point in the timeline.

As for Kashmir, (I'm treading dangerous waters here) don't the Kashmiris have a right to exist? If, for whatever reason, they prefer Paki hegemony to the Indian hegemony should their voice be heard? Or, are we to consider ourselves as the big fish in this little South Asian pond and elect our own Dubya to fight the good fight against all them godless hordes?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]azooey
2006-07-15 05:06 pm UTC (link)
well apparently, back in the 40s the palestinians were given a chance to come to the table, and the deal really was to give the jews 1/3rd of the land that is now Israel. If they'd taken the offer, perhaps history would have been different.

And sure in an ideal situation, the Kashmiris have a right to decide where they wanna go. But this is far from ideal situation. Egos, elections and patriotism. Not to mention the constitution of India, which does not even give Parliament the right to "give away" a piece of Indian territory. So, quite practically, if they want it - they'll have to fight for it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cyntalist, 2006-07-16 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vasuvasu, 2006-07-17 12:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azooey, 2006-07-18 05:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2006-07-18 04:46 pm UTC

[info]myrch
2006-07-18 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Do you forget that Israel started existing by going in, shooting up and driving out a bunch of Arabs?

haha, wow.

haha, seriously.

thanks for the laugh.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Its true - (Anonymous), 2006-07-18 05:24 pm UTC
Re: Its true - [info]myrch, 2006-07-18 05:59 pm UTC
Re: Its true - (Anonymous), 2006-07-18 08:31 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-07-15 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Insanity in individuals is something rare; but in groups, nations and epochs, it is the rule. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Sanotosh [listening and wondering, how many roads must a man walk down...]

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]azooey
2006-07-15 05:10 pm UTC (link)
ooooh... nice song! and thanks for the quote.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Insanity within
(Anonymous)
2006-07-17 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Aren't groups just the amplifier of insanity within an individual?

Also, guys, the naïveté out here is amazing. Whoever is suggesting war, either overt or covert needs lessons in history and mathematics.

~C.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Insanity within - [info]azooey, 2006-07-18 03:00 am UTC
Re: Insanity within - (Anonymous), 2006-07-18 08:45 am UTC
Re: Insanity within - (Anonymous), 2006-07-18 08:47 am UTC
Re: Insanity within - [info]cyntalist, 2006-07-18 08:27 am UTC
Re: Insanity within - (Anonymous), 2006-07-18 08:47 am UTC

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