Anu ([info]azooey) wrote,
@ 2006-08-20 13:24:00
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The Culture of Nations - Its who you are

Today's Sunday Times carries a guest column by David Brooks (original NYT article). Whether you get a parking ticket or not, would depend on a gazillion real life factors. Time, traffic, a fight with your spouse, a lost sock, vehicle malfuntion or whatever-god-wills. It might sound be unfair, even far-fetched to caliberate my cultural standing, and hence predict my economic growth, on the scale of parking tickets. But the numbers don't lie. Infact, the truth rings in, not uncharacteristically I might add, with a few racially charged conclusions.

Only last night, dad and I were talking about how cultural values can affect workplace policies and production strategies. "The Japanese need no incentives. Its a sin not to work," he pointed out. It comes as no surprise that they went from a comprehensively defeated nation to an industrial giant, in time that spanned a little over half of India's independent life. Germany, Israel and Britain are also relevant in a similar context. It would, however, be a spurious claim that their recovery was economically inspired.

 The reason there are such wide variations in ticket rates is that human beings are not merely products of economics. The diplomats paid no cost for parking illegally, thanks to diplomatic immunity. But human beings are also shaped by cultural and moral norms. If you’re Swedish and you have a chance to pull up in front of a fire hydrant, you still don’t do it. You’re Swedish. That’s who you are. 

People need the coherence their culture provides and value it even more than easy parking.

Veteran foreign aid worker, Lawrence E. Harrison has of course spelt out what has not exactly been stuff of arcane propellant technology: Cultural differences mostly explain why some nations develop quickly while others do not. All cultures have value because they provide coherence, but some cultures foster development while others retard it. Some cultures check corruption, while others permit it. Some cultures focus on the future, while others focus on the past. Some cultures encourage the belief that individuals can control their own destinies, while others encourage fatalism.

Writing about poverty or war on terror (does that suggest a bias or an insight?) , it is not clear which, he feels that cultural change can’t be imposed from the outside, except in rare circumstances. It has to be led by people who recognize and accept responsibility for their own culture’s problems and selectively reinterpret their own traditions to encourage modernization. 

Brooks himself takes it a step further - Muslim men in Britain might decide to renounce freedom and prosperity for midair martyrdom. They are driven by a deep cultural need for meaning. But it is also foolish to think we can address the root causes of their toxic desires. We’ll just have to fight the symptoms of a disease we can neither cure nor understand.

But slightly more relevant to us in India, are the economic offshoots of cultural stagnation. Amartya Sen might continue to eulogise about Hinduism, but these papers suggest that religion can determine the level of corruption in a society. That's probably too simplisticly put and lacks authority. But if you've battled with Statistics (as I am hopelessly doing now), the application of regression analysis to predict the "systematic deviation" requires the most parsimonious model i.e. determining only the independent variables that most affect the dependent variable, not all possible (possibly interdependent) variables that try to establish "too perfect a fit" for the data. 

Right, and this is where i run out of gas. No puns intended.



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[info]fugney
2006-08-20 03:02 pm UTC (link)
I read the article, and thought it very racist. It's a bunch of silly rubbish.

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 09:04 am UTC (link)
Not all that reeks of racism is crap. just like all that glitters is not gold.

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(Anonymous)
2006-10-15 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Very interesting to see an Indian blogger link to David Brooks. I have myself been following him for over a year now.

Have some of his articles up in my article archive here :
http://thebroadcaster.blogspot.com/search?q=brooks&x=0&y=0

if you find time, read the last one on that page -
http://thebroadcaster.blogspot.com/2006/02/questions-on-culture.html

Although I would characterize myself as a libertarian and not a right-wing ( and certainly not a liberal), I like much of Brooks writings.

Elsewhere in the blog I saw you link to the indianeconomyblog and don bordeaux at cafehayek. Great stuff !! Every looked at marginalrevolution.com ?

Cheers
sharathrao.blogspot.com


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Doesn't really fit
(Anonymous)
2006-08-20 05:09 pm UTC (link)
So culture determines the fate of a nation? Geographical determinism (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393317552) is just a racial slur, even though there might be places where you can accept geography as cause for growth/collapse. Cultural determinism is just plain racist, most often, with an implicit implication that European culture is the best.

The article summary that you linked to, lists 10 points as differences between a culture which fosters economic growth and which doesn't. The trouble with these points is that these values are present in either of the societies, ones which are growing (or have grown) and which are stagnant. Not only the values, even the vices are omnipresent and do not distinguish between cultures.

What is different however is that societies, and consequently nations which have effective checks and balances have flourished while others floundered.

Another difference is that societies which faced a revolution have always bounced back much stronger than before. This has been true, not only of the Japanese, but is also true of the American and French societies. Thomas Jefferson said it best: Every generation needs a new revolution.

~C.

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Re: Doesn't really fit
[info]azooey
2006-08-21 08:55 am UTC (link)
*scratches head* I was talking of the Japanese revival after WWII. I dont remember reading abt any revolutions in Japan, Britain or Germany after that.

And didnt India have its half century long "revolution", ending in 1947.

nations which have effective checks and balances have flourished while others floundered.

If it were that simple, why doesnt everyone have effective checks and balances?

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Re: Doesn't really fit
[info]five18pm
2006-08-21 01:28 pm UTC (link)
Umm... WWII doesn't qualify as revolution?

rev·o·lu·tion (rĕv'ə-lū'shən) n.
...
2. The overthrow of one government and its replacement with another.
3. A sudden or momentous change in a situation: the revolution in computer technology.

Japan, Germany -> 2
Britain, US -> 3.

India -> 3. Where do we begin on this one?!
We didn't have a sudden and momentous change.
We didn't go the whole 9 yards. We stopped at political freedom.
We replaced white sahibs with brown sahibs.
There were already too many people who were entrenched in the government and Nehru wasn't ready to send all of the them home.
Nehru took advice from wrong people.
We managed to write a constitution but did not manage to (re)write the derivatives of constitution. Our police, tax, communication acts were all formed in 1800s.
There was an understanding of freedom, but not an understanding of liberty.
Yada, yada, yada.. this will take volumes.

Basic idea of the "revolution" comment was that we overthrow what is existing with new people/ideas/mechanisms etc. Any new set of ideas *will* generate growth, now whether this growth is sustained depends on the strength of the ideas. So we too had some growth. Nehru era was not *that* bad. Things were going downhill but they didn't reach nadir until Indira Gandhi came along.

If only somebody had actually listened to Gandhi and disbanded Congress, if only Swantatra party had some more supporters...

If it were that simple, why doesnt everyone have effective checks and balances?


Because it is not easy to develop an effective checks and balances system??! It took collective efforts of James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, George Mason, et al., to write a constitution which had an effective checks and balances system. Even this constitution and the checks and balances had/has to be fought for every other day.

And even this constitution is not without its detractors. Read through this. This is the case for democratic societies with recyclable rulers. Imagine the fun when it comes to other systems of governance.

Oh, btw, have you looked at our constitution?

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Re: Doesn't really fit
[info]azooey
2006-08-21 03:23 pm UTC (link)
wonderful reading C!! Thanks for "No Treason". Have u read the whole thing? May be you should just give me gist of it over coffee ;) And no, quite unfortunate, but I havent looked at our constitution.

Because it is not easy to develop an effective checks and balances system??!

Yes, thats my point. Its obviously been *relatively* easier for some than for the others. Coz its obviously been more effective for some and less for others. What do u think creates this dichotomy, if i may call it that?

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Re: Doesn't really fit
[info]five18pm
2006-08-21 06:45 pm UTC (link)

wonderful reading C!! Thanks for "No Treason". Have u read the whole thing? May be you should just give me gist of it over coffee ;) And no, quite unfortunate, but I havent looked at our constitution.


Yes, I have read the whole thing. It left me feeling quite dystopic, when you consider that the best system of government (as in a democratic republic) that some body can conjure up, taken up and ripped to shreds point by point.

As far as our own constitution is concerned, it is a rambling parody without the wit. We had so many constitutions and bills of rights to choose from. But no siree, we had to copy from all and make a mess of it.

It hurts to imagine that our constitution framers did not have the courage to have belief in their fellow man. How difficult is it to believe that your fellow man is out there only to make a living? Neither did they believe in the absolute right of an individual over the community, society and the nation. Our constitution has so many articles which seem to provide a right and take it away in vaguest of pretences of morality, defamation and decency.

Of course, ready to talk about constitutions and treason over that cup of coffee :).

Its obviously been *relatively* easier for some than for the others. Coz its obviously been more effective for some and less for others.

My own observation: it has always been easier where the absolute rights of individual have been recognized. Only an individual can take the maximum effort to uplift himself. Checks need to be introduced only when one individual's efforts to uplift himself hurts another individual or that individual's efforts to uplift himself (why, yes I am a mad raving libertarian, how can you tell?). Now before any one points the finger at China, let me just say this: even China has changed its rules/laws. Now there is a limited right to property and right of movement.

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[info]dilip
2006-08-20 05:58 pm UTC (link)
I need to concentrate in order to read your posts.. still i dont understand anything many times... ur brain should be powerful in order to write these very complex sentences :-))

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Thats true
(Anonymous)
2006-08-21 07:09 am UTC (link)
She is training to be Amartya Sen, I guess ;).

~C.

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Re: Thats true
[info]azooey
2006-08-21 08:58 am UTC (link)
Funny.

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 08:58 am UTC (link)
ur brain should be powerful in order to write these very complex sentences

Boost is the secret of my energy. MWAAHHAHAAAAAAA.

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[info]aimlesswanderer
2006-08-21 12:48 am UTC (link)
People need the coherence their culture provides and value it even more than easy parking.

It is interesting to see how these lines convincingly localize a broad spectrum of behavioral patterns vis-a-vis driving/parking. At the risk of digressing from your well written (and researched) piece, do you really believe people are more driven by the sociological need to "do the right thing" or the more plausible "do what is more convenient"?

I have been driving in Texas where there are just too many deviants to this theory.

./w

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 09:02 am UTC (link)
do you really believe people are more driven by the sociological need to "do the right thing" or the more plausible "do what is more convenient"?

If you're a vegetarian (lets say by choice, rather than by birth) would u eat a beef burger, because its more convenient to get? Or would u rather walk down a extra block to get ur regular veggie burger.

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[info]fugney
2006-08-21 11:22 am UTC (link)
So where do you get "parking-vegetarians"?

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 03:06 pm UTC (link)
It was an analogy. There are some things we just wont compromise. Just like the swedes wont compromise abt parking right, we dont compromise our food requirements. Its the way culture makes u.

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[info]five18pm
2006-08-21 01:34 pm UTC (link)
What if that trip around the extra block is a trip around the continent? Hmm.. relative values...

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 03:09 pm UTC (link)
relative, may be. What if that trip around the extra block is a trip around the continent? :) some of us even do that. Just for "maa ke haath ka khana".

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[info]aimlesswanderer
2006-08-21 01:53 pm UTC (link)
I thought we were discussing "Sociological" constructs, not physiological ones.

./w

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 03:15 pm UTC (link)
might sound silly, but how is choosing to walk more for ur veggie burger when ur running late for an appointment any more "physiological" compared to finding the right parking spot when ur late for a meeting? I think being vegetarian is more of a "sociological" than a "physiological" preference for many.

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[info]aimlesswanderer
2006-08-21 03:32 pm UTC (link)
I agree with this to a certain extent; what would really convince me is the answer to 'Why do so many Indians become the perfect citizens (having been sociologically finetuned to spit on the roads, pee on walls, cut-corners while driving and so on..) when they are put in a different country, let's say the US of A?' I don't think they become a sociological convert the day they land here, they follow the rules coz if they don't they go to the "bad place" :)

Needless to say, these examples are perhaps gross exaggerations (and a bit sexist as they bring out only the dominatingly male psychology) and are not sweeping in a way that covers all the Indians in the US/India, but I hope I have given you my drift.

./w

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 05:06 pm UTC (link)
u sure have :)

'Why do so many Indians become the perfect citizens when they are put in a different country

no, they dont become sociological converts, but the "checks" are so effectively implemented that the fear of being caught works as well as a deterrent. And yes, the stakes are just too high, monetary or otherwise. Its just a calculated gamble in the end.

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[info]aimlesswanderer
2006-08-21 05:10 pm UTC (link)
but the "checks" are so effectively implemented that the fear of being caught works as well as a deterrent.

Which brings us to the original point: why do you think the same is not true for the Citizen's themselves? :)

./w

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[info]azooey
2006-08-21 05:22 pm UTC (link)
one, the stakes may not be that high for the americans as for a travelling indian.
two, the article did not comment on the culture of the americans per se. I might offer a conjecture: All conditions(home land etc) remaining same, they might be better than the Indians but worse than the Swedes.

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[info]aimlesswanderer
2006-08-21 05:47 pm UTC (link)
I am surprised how often I have found comfort in middle-grounds inspite of being a black-or-white person.

Thank you for the stimulating conversations.

./w

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[info]azooey
2006-08-22 02:47 am UTC (link)
the pleasure was mine, monsieur.

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Culture is a vague word...
[info]vasuvasu
2006-08-24 09:55 am UTC (link)
Culture is too vauge a concept to attribute to lay human behaviour.

Today people are discovering subcultures within smaller social groups. This "civilisational culture", is a term used by the emacnipated Christians. They used to call it "civilised"..

A bunch of habits most of which suit the rigours of local living is what makes this mossaic called culture.. Its certainly not one hue and one tone.

Thus IMHO any analysis on "culture" is as much invalid as it is based on "race".

I agree partly that, socital context plays a big role. What makes a man change from "can you give me that burgur parcelled" to "can you give me the burgur to go".. or How long does it take for him to adjust from driving on the left to the right...

Humans are much more resiliant. The business of survival has brought us here. Adjusting from rain forests, to swamps, to cold mountains, to deserts and now inside airconditioned coccoons.. Ultimately, human behaviour in a public place is guided by the societal context, not based on commonality of culture.

my 2 cents on a nice discussion...

vasu

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